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Messianic Jew or Christian?; OP by Syfen
Topic Started: April 30, 2012, 5:23 pm (887 Views)
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Messianic Jews and Christians

I think this might belond in "End Times Chat" since it is related to the end times, however if it should be moved, feel free to do so:

Okay... this might sound like an stupid question to some that are more familiar with the subject, i was however curious as to the difference between modern Messianic Judaism, and Christianity (or more specificaly Evangelical Christianity). The average Jew would probably consider Messianic Judaism to be Christianity with a little Judaism sprinkled ontop, and on the other hand i assume that Christians would consider Messianic Jews to be Jews which have accepted Jesus (am i right on this?) , now to me a Jew which has accepted Jesus is a Christian... so what are the differences?
Here are some more specific questions.
Would messianic Jews celebrate Pesach (Passover), Hanukkah, Purim, Rosh HaShanah, Yom Kippur, Simchat Torah etc? Would they also celebrate Christian holidays? (Christmas, Easter etc)

I know that Messianic Jews share with most Evangelical and Pentecostal Christians a belief that Jesus will someday return to the earth and establish his kingdom .. i have read that some also believe that this return is directly related to the acceptance of Jesus by other Jews (when i say Jews im talking about "old-school" Torah/Old Testament Jews...) is that the case?

Are the differences mostly ceremonial? (displaying the Star of David and Menorah instead of the Cross, celebrating Jewish high holy days, performing a Brith, Bar-Mitzvah etc)

What is the difference between a Messianic Jew and a Hebrew Christian?
if any

Sometiems i get the feeling that Messianic Jews refrain from using blatently Christian terms so that they dont "turn off" other Jews and keep them a bit more open minded, in the mid 19th centutry for example , the first Messianic umbrella organization, the Hebrew Christian Alliance, had been formed through the Church of England with the primary goal of evangelizing the Jewish people, to me that makes the difference more symantic as opposed to a complete and seperate identity. Jews for Jesus for example was officially founded by the Baptist minister Martin Rosen - basicaly the same case there.

I know its alot of questions, but i cant seem to find any real clear cut answers to these maybe someone out there can help me out ...
What is the deal here exacly?

mikesteffen February 3rd, 2006 12:30 PM
A Jew who accepts Jesus in this age, that is before the rapture, becomes a part of the church, that is the bride of Christ. So spiritual there is no difference.

Have you ever watched Zola Levitt on TV. He is a messianic Jew. He has a pretty good web site.

http://www.levitt.com/

__________________

Syfen February 3rd, 2006 12:36 PM
Yea i have checked him out still had a bit of a problem finding real differences short of Symbolic or Ceremonial (i.e. celebrating different holidays calling Jesus Yeshua etc), but nothing realy substantive... .. i guess you are saying thats the case.

mabzar February 3rd, 2006 01:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Syfen
I think this might belond in "End Times Chat" since it is related to the end times, however if it should be moved, feel free to do so:

The average Jew would probably consider Messianic Judaism to be Christianity with a little Judaism sprinkled ontop,

and on the other hand i assume that Christians would consider Messianic Jews to be Jews which have accepted Jesus (am i right on this?) , now to me a Jew which has accepted Jesus is a Christian...

so what are the differences?

I know its alot of questions, but i cant seem to find any real clear cut answers to these maybe someone out there can help me out ...
What is the deal here exacly?
These are wonderful question dear Syfen, and not easy at all to answer.

Bear with me, and kindly pray that many eyes will open to difficult ideas today.

The Jews are not only a cultural and national people.

The Jews are the chosen people who have been called to be A 'SET APART'
community of believers in the One True Creator. They are a people cared for,
lead by, chosen, chastised and covenanted with The Creator of all people.

One of the parts of the Covenant with the Jewish people is their Land.
Another part of the Covenant God made with the Jewish people is that a
Chosen Seed, A Redeemer of All mankind would come from their nation.

The Promise of the Saviour came in the form of a Jewish man born to a
virgin as promised by God to an old time prophet, Isaiah. This man was raised
in accordance to all of the Law and the prophets and was a very faithful
Jewish man named Yeshua or some english translations from Hebrew relate
His Name as Joshua or Jehoshua = "Jehovah is salvation"

http://www.messianic.com/yeshua/chap2.htm#BIRTHYESHUA

Yeshua is Identified as the Promised Messiah, or Saviour, Redeemer, Lamb of
God. God's covenants were with Adam and Noah, but the Chosen and Set
Apart for Salvation comes thru the Jewish people .... sons and heirs of
Abraham...Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which [he had] being [yet] uncircumcised.

Rom 4:16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Abraham was Set Apart by his FAith, which is the inheritance of those who
believe in God...And even way back then our Lord promised to Abraham that
even Gentiles would be able to come into fellowship with The Holy God.

Gen 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name
shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

Isa 63:16 Doubtless Thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us,
and Israel acknowledge us not: Thou, O LORD, art our Father, our Redeemer;
Thy Name is from everlasting.

Jews cannot put a smattering of Judiasm into their worship... neither can
believers choose to ignore the totality of the Word of God.

It will boil down to a ton of love and worship of our Creator to cut thru
the fog of confusion the translators and transliterators of the Holy Word
left us with....

The Old Covenant was all written in Hebrew....The New Covenant in Greek,
which was the common language of the Jewish people in Israel at the time
of the Apostles....Later when it was to be Printed it had to be re-translated
into 'king James english'....by english speaking folks who had lost a great deal
of knowledge of HEBREW Customs and Worship 'traditions' and commands.

I'll try to explain in brief....
The Alaskan Inuet Tribes have 34 different names to express SNOW.
If they went to the Carribean and told the people there any one of the words
they have for snow....the Carribean would still not comprehend it, as they
have never seen nor felt cold white stuff falling from the sky!

Same as how does an english man try to convey the thought of a Hebrew
Priest or King being Anointed? They end up with a word that really makes
no sense....Christo's which has no meaning....it possibly came from the word
Chrestos' meaning virtuous, good. and today some folks tend to think that
Yeshua's name is Jesus Christ....

Christ is supposed to mean MESSIAH, or the Anointed One, Son of God.

http://www.biblepage.com/biblepage/c...itken1782.html

Jesus is just a Greek form of the Hebrew Name Joshua or Yeshua.

Unfortunately what the english translators did was build a huge gulf between
the Hebrew essence of God and His dealing with people on this earth.

kind of like throwing out the baby with the bath water...if ya ever heard of
that expression :cry

So Today many folks are trying to rebuild that bridge between the two.

Isa 58:12 And [they that shall be] of Thee shall build the old waste places:
Thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and Thou shalt be
called, The Repairer of the breach, The Restorer of paths to dwell in.

There is so much more to delve into on this subject...but keep in mind...
there is a demonic hatred of the Jewish people, we have been thru the
history of their persecution and they in turn have a scepticism and even
fear of all things "Christian". It does almost seem like 'christians' have
robbed the Hebrews of their Covenant Relationship with God, and there
are many fears to help overcome, many wounds to heal and much love to
generate in respect and honor for God's People.

Syfen February 3rd, 2006 02:07 PM
thanks for the info mabzar.

Just another one of those things to add to the list of "do more research"

pilgrimian February 3rd, 2006 02:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Syfen
thanks for the info mabzar.

Just another one of those things to add to the list of "do more research"
I would add that the basic difference is their love for the people of Israel. I am an unapologetic Zionist. Also, I attend Ben David Messianic Jewish Congregation in Orange, California.

So the main difference is an understanding of Israelology...a love for the people of Israel, and the conviction of witnessing to them in a loving manner...and also our liturgy.

Godspeed & Shabbat Shalom!
Matthew

Syfen February 3rd, 2006 04:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pilgrimian
I would add that the basic difference is their love for the people of Israel. I am an unapologetic Zionist. Also, I attend Ben David Messianic Jewish Congregation in Orange, California.

So the main difference is an understanding of Israelology...a love for the people of Israel, and the conviction of witnessing to them in a loving manner...and also our liturgy.

Godspeed & Shabbat Shalom!
Matthew
So would you consider yourself Jewish or Christian? :confused

LongLiveRawk February 3rd, 2006 09:00 PM
Quote:
Okay... this might sound like an stupid question to some that are more familiar with the subject, i was however curious as to the difference between modern Messianic Judaism, and Christianity (or more specificaly Evangelical Christianity).
Don't worry, there's nothing stupid about asking this question. :):

Quote:
The average Jew would probably consider Messianic Judaism to be Christianity with a little Judaism sprinkled ontop, and on the other hand i assume that Christians would consider Messianic Jews to be Jews which have accepted Jesus (am i right on this?)
Actually, the reaction I've seen (especially from the Orthodox sect) regarding Messianic Judaism is that Orthodox Jews abhor Messianics. They consider Messianic Jews traitors to the faith, and worshippers of a "false G-d" (since they do not recognize Yeshua as G-d). As a matter of fact, Israel will not let a Messianic Jew perform aliyah (the return of a Jew to their native homeland) because Messianic Jews do believe in Yeshua as Messiah...even though Israel lets secular Jews return. The reaction (this is only from what I've seen) from Christian communities to Messianic Judaism is kind of a mix of curiosity, fascination, and recognizing the fact that, yes, Messianic Jews are Jews who have discovered the truth of Moshiach.
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now to me a Jew which has accepted Jesus is a Christian... so what are the differences?
Here are some more specific questions.
Would messianic Jews celebrate Pesach (Passover), Hanukkah, Purim, Rosh HaShanah, Yom Kippur, Simchat Torah etc? Would they also celebrate Christian holidays? (Christmas, Easter etc)
The differences between mainstream Christianity and Messianic Judaism are quite a few. Yes, most (if not all) Messianic Jews celebrate Jewish holidays, as well as observance of Shabbat. As far as Easter and Christmas goes, I myself am really not sure. Some decry the Pagan roots of such holidays, but perhaps celebrate the events in Christ's life in some other way...that, or they do celebrate Christmas and Easter. I think it's mostly a case of conscience.

Quote:
I know that Messianic Jews share with most Evangelical and Pentecostal Christians a belief that Jesus will someday return to the earth and establish his kingdom .. i have read that some also believe that this return is directly related to the acceptance of Jesus by other Jews (when i say Jews im talking about "old-school" Torah/Old Testament Jews...) is that the case?
This bears a little bit of explanation...ancient Rabbis, after reviewing Messianic prophecies in Tanakh (Old Testament), were perplexed when they saw Messiah being called both a "suffering servant" and as a reigning King. Eventually, they came to the conclusion that there would be two types of Messiahs to come, one after another.

1) Moschiach ben Yosef - this is the "suffering servant" Messiah. He is to be ridiculed, hated, put down, and ultimately, destroyed by His own people. Many Orthodox Jews today believe he will die in the battle of Armageddon.
2) Moschiach ben David - This Messiah is the "reigning king". He is the one who sets up his kingdom on Earth, establishes peace around the world, and ultimately, saves His people.

Now, we know as believers in Christ, that Moshiach ben Yosef is Jesus Christ. He came to this earth, was ridiculed and hated by the Jewish authorities of his day, and they ultimately killed the very person who came to save them. As believers in Christ, we also know that Jesus will come again, where he will establish peace, set up his kingdom, and save His people (thus fitting the Moshiach ben David role). I personally believe that during the Tribulation, many Jews will come to accept Yeshua as being the Messiah, and will be saved from the Antichrist's wrath by Yeshua.

Quote:
Are the differences mostly ceremonial? (displaying the Star of David and Menorah instead of the Cross, celebrating Jewish high holy days, performing a Brith, Bar-Mitzvah etc)
I think the differences go further than simply ceremonial, but seeing as I'm not Messianic Jewish (I'm only just infatuated with Jewish history, practices, and such :P:), I don't think I'm knowledgable to answer your question.

Quote:
What is the difference between a Messianic Jew and a Hebrew Christian?
if any
The main difference is just that - a Jew is a Jew, and a Gentile is a Gentile. Gentiles are not Jews, and Jews are not Gentiles - thus, I think they will somehow be treated differently. I guess I would be identified as a Hebrew Christian, or Messianic Gentile, as I prefer to use Hebrew names for many things (Jesus = Yeshua, Sabbath = Shabbat, New Testament = B'rit Chadashah, etc.), and I would prefer attending a Messianic Jewish service over a mainstream church service anyday...but as I said, I am just very interested in Judaism.

Quote:
Sometiems i get the feeling that Messianic Jews refrain from using blatently Christian terms so that they dont "turn off" other Jews and keep them a bit more open minded, in the mid 19th centutry for example , the first Messianic umbrella organization, the Hebrew Christian Alliance, had been formed through the Church of England with the primary goal of evangelizing the Jewish people, to me that makes the difference more symantic as opposed to a complete and seperate identity. Jews for Jesus for example was officially founded by the Baptist minister Martin Rosen - basicaly the same case there.
Personally, I think it depends on who it is. Many Messianic Jews prefer to use Christian terms just because they were raised saying the Jewish terms instead of Christian terms. If you were raised as an Orthodox Jew, and then became Messianic Jewish, I doubt the person would automatically start using "Old Testament", instead of "Tanakh" or "Torah". However, I think some groups, like J4J, do use Jewish terms for evangelistic reasons, to reach other Jews.

Quote:
I know its alot of questions, but i cant seem to find any real clear cut answers to these maybe someone out there can help me out ...
What is the deal here exacly?
That's no problem. I hope I helped. My beliefs aren't exactly representative of everyone, so I'm not sure how clear cut my answers will be.

Joel February 3rd, 2006 09:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LongLiveRawk
Actually, the reaction I've seen (especially from the Orthodox sect) regarding Messianic Judaism is that Orthodox Jews abhor Messianics. They consider Messianic Jews traitors to the faith, and worshippers of a "false G-d" (since they do not recognize Yeshua as G-d). As a matter of fact, Israel will not let a Messianic Jew perform aliyah (the return of a Jew to their native homeland) because Messianic Jews do believe in Yeshua as Messiah...even though Israel lets secular Jews return. The reaction (this is only from what I've seen) from Christian communities to Messianic Judaism is kind of a mix of curiosity, fascination, and recognizing the fact that, yes, Messianic Jews are Jews who have discovered the truth of Moshiach.
Yes.... I have seen this.
It grieves me to no end.. Some of the most vehement anti-missionaries are Orthodox Jews.. the apple of God's eye...

it's really heartbreaking sometimes, heh. One starts to get a feel/sympathy for Paul's desire to see all his brethern saved...

Quote:
That's no problem. I hope I helped. My beliefs aren't exactly representative of everyone, so I'm not sure how clear cut my answers will be.
I thought your answers were top-notch...

LongLiveRawk February 3rd, 2006 09:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel
Yes.... I have seen this.
It grieves me to no end.. Some of the most vehement anti-missionaries are Orthodox Jews.. the apple of God's eye...

it's really heartbreaking sometimes, heh. One starts to get a feel/sympathy for Paul's desire to see all his brethern saved...
I know what you mean. There have been times where I have pleaded over and over again for G-d to save his people. I remember reading an article in Ha'Aretz (I think) about a large group of Haredi - some of the most ardent, fundamentalist, strict religious Orthodox Jews there are - protesting outside a Messianic woman's house in Israel. They were saying awful things about her and Messianic Jews in general. Even worse, the mayor of the city in which this was happening let it happen. :doh

Lord, save your people! They seek to serve you and please you, but they are still lost! Show them the light of Your Son, the Messiah!

pilgrimian February 3rd, 2006 09:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Syfen
So would you consider yourself Jewish or Christian? :confused
There really isn't an "either...or" issue here. Many of the folks I attend congregation with are Jewish...and believe in Yeshua as the Messiah. So for all intents and purposes they're Christians. It simply is the case that "Christian" has come to mean so much more (or less, really) than when it was first used in Antioch so many years ago.

I am a Christian, but I don't prefer the term...but I'm not ashamed of who is at the center of that term. I am ashamed of how the word has been bastardized and how many people claim to be what they really aren't...burning people to death for not coming to the Lord, etc.

I cannot be Jewish...because my father is not Jewish. I have a heart for Israel, and I love the God of Israel. Nevertheless, I am a gentile...because that just happens to be who I am. Many seem to think that Jews must "convert" to "our God." Really, we are the ones who "convert." They definitely must come to the Father through the Son...but what I am getting at is that our God is the God of Israel. I'm in no way implying there are multiple ways to salvation.

So the short of it is that I am Messianic...I am a Christian...I believe in Yeshua...I won't gasp when I hear Him referred to as "Jesus," I simply prefer His name in the Hebrew. And Jewishness comes from the father...and since my dad's not Jewish I am not Jewish.

Godspeed & Shalom,
Matthew

pilgrimian February 3rd, 2006 09:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LongLiveRawk
Lord, save your people! They seek to serve you and please you, but they are still lost! Show them the light of Your Son, the Messiah!
I had a Jewish lady once tell me that we need to pray for the Rabbis....once the Rabbis come to the Lord then many Jews will be less averse to hearing about the truth of Moshiach.

Godspeed & Shabbat Shalom,
Matthew

Restorer February 4th, 2006 12:13 AM
Being a grafted branch myself, wouldn't want to tackle most of the questions and I believe the best persons to answer this are messianic Jews like Longliverawk.

But a few points, I tend to think that a good number of Messianic Jews would be called to bring the remnant believers from amongst their own people; They would be better off preaching to people who have seen them respecting the age old festivals of Jews;this means they need to respectfully observe the festivals not to keep the law but for the love of their lord. But on top of that include the bread and wine covenant. And I suppose there is no difference between Pesach and Easter for the Messianic Jew.

With regard to christian festivals, some like lent do not have any wide practice; others like christmas are celebrated by believers and pagans alike. It is really a feasting and consuming period. No need to regard it as an important thing to keep. But do whatever you do on other sundays and perhaps with more emphasis on the gift of the baby Jesus. The only true christian festival is passover or Easter that carries meaning. We already have enough sundays when Jesus is preached.

Another thing, to Jews who are called to preach amongst gentiles, they may need to know that the expectation (standard of righteous living and understanding of the word) from the gentiles would be higher for Messianic Jews than for gentile christians. This comes from the fact that everybody knows that Jews were the chosen race; if one is from the chosen race and now accepts christ, he has a double blessing and should apply it wisely.

But in a very general way, there is no difference between a Messianic Jew and a born-again christian. They are all believers. Perhaps the only difference is that the term christian is soiled by the large number of non-believers who are supposedly christians and the large number of denominations amongst christians. So a born-again Jew would preserve his identity and faith best by calling himself Messianic Jew. Messianic Jews themselves should also foster unity of faith and purpose amongst themselves and their own people.

Shalom. I believe in Yeshua but I am comfortable calling him my Lord Jesus Christ. But I would think a Messianic Jew would be more comfortable calling him Yeshua HaMashiach.

mdcar1 February 4th, 2006 02:50 AM
[
I cannot be Jewish...because my father is not Jewish. And Jewishness comes from the father...and since my dad's not Jewish I am not Jewish.

Godspeed & Shalom,
Matthew



I am Jewish and also a believer in Yeshua....It was always the teaching that the Jewishness came from the Mother...In fact I believe in Jewish law if your mother and grandmother is Jewish, you are consider to be Jewish as well.

semperfidelis February 4th, 2006 09:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Syfen
I think this might belond in "End Times Chat" since it is related to the end times, however if it should be moved, feel free to do so:

Okay... this might sound like an stupid question to some that are more familiar with the subject, i was however curious as to the difference between modern Messianic Judaism, and Christianity (or more specificaly Evangelical Christianity). The average Jew would probably consider Messianic Judaism to be Christianity with a little Judaism sprinkled ontop, and on the other hand i assume that Christians would consider Messianic Jews to be Jews which have accepted Jesus (am i right on this?) , now to me a Jew which has accepted Jesus is a Christian... so what are the differences?
Here are some more specific questions.
Would messianic Jews celebrate Pesach (Passover), Hanukkah, Purim, Rosh HaShanah, Yom Kippur, Simchat Torah etc? Would they also celebrate Christian holidays? (Christmas, Easter etc)

I know that Messianic Jews share with most Evangelical and Pentecostal Christians a belief that Jesus will someday return to the earth and establish his kingdom .. i have read that some also believe that this return is directly related to the acceptance of Jesus by other Jews (when i say Jews im talking about "old-school" Torah/Old Testament Jews...) is that the case?

Are the differences mostly ceremonial? (displaying the Star of David and Menorah instead of the Cross, celebrating Jewish high holy days, performing a Brith, Bar-Mitzvah etc)

What is the difference between a Messianic Jew and a Hebrew Christian?
if any

Sometiems i get the feeling that Messianic Jews refrain from using blatently Christian terms so that they dont "turn off" other Jews and keep them a bit more open minded, in the mid 19th centutry for example , the first Messianic umbrella organization, the Hebrew Christian Alliance, had been formed through the Church of England with the primary goal of evangelizing the Jewish people, to me that makes the difference more symantic as opposed to a complete and seperate identity. Jews for Jesus for example was officially founded by the Baptist minister Martin Rosen - basicaly the same case there.

I know its alot of questions, but i cant seem to find any real clear cut answers to these maybe someone out there can help me out ...
What is the deal here exacly?
The whole deal here is this. Has the Jew accepted Christ as the Messiah.

If he has then he is in the body of Christ and part of the Church. Paul makes it clear that after someone believes in Christ there is no more Jew or Gentile, only body of Christ.

If not he is still Jewish but not a believer in Christ.

antsinmypants February 5th, 2006 07:04 AM
First off, I think you've gotten some pretty good answers thus far.


Depending on the person, or group "participating" would depend on the level of Judaism one would see in the "messianic judaism" practiced.
Some groups would call themselves "Hebrew christians" - they keep sunday and do all the other "Evangelical Christian" stuff...

Others, usually deeming themselves "Messianic Judaism" ar esomewhere between that and what one sees as "Orthodox Judaism" -- the only difference in their beliefs and Conservative or Orthodoxy being that they believe in Y'shua as their messiah and keep the feasts and kashrut as well as Taharat Mishpocha out of their love for YHVH and obedience to Y'shua -- not dependant on works-based salvation.

With my experience, some congregations are at their services nothing BUT a "church" in that it's all the liturgy and everything handed down since what Y'shua started became the Roman Catholic Church and filtered down in through the Reformation... it has a slight "Jewish flavor" but everything- all the "trappings" are churchy...

Other congregations, walking in- the only difference you would notice from the congregation and an orthodox synogogue would be the piano and overhead computer system.. all the liturgy, prayers, and even seperation of members would be the same... and the other thing you'd notice [big time] is how "hard core" the people are for Y'shua. :):

pilgrimian February 8th, 2006 08:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pilgrimian
I cannot be Jewish...because my father is not Jewish. And Jewishness comes from the father...and since my dad's not Jewish I am not Jewish.

Godspeed & Shalom,
Matthew
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdcar1
I am Jewish and also a believer in Yeshua....It was always the teaching that the Jewishness came from the Mother...In fact I believe in Jewish law if your mother and grandmother is Jewish, you are consider to be Jewish as well.
It is true that contemporary Judaism teaches that Jewishness comes from the mother, but this is not the case of Scripturally grounded Judaism--and that of Yeshua's day.

Quote:
Leviticus 24:

10 And the son of an Israelitish woman, whose father was an Egyptian, went out among the children of Israel; and the son of the Israelitish woman and a man of Israel strove together in the camp:

11 and the son of the Israelitish woman blasphemed the Name, and cursed; and they brought him unto Moses. And his mother's name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri, of the tribe of Dan.
As we see here, the child is Egyptian...never considered an Israelite. He is the son of an Israelitish woman...but not an Israelite himself. The same is true of Timothy in the New Testament Scriptures:

Quote:
Acts 16:

1He came to Derbe and then to Lystra, where a disciple named Timothy lived, whose mother was a Jewess and a believer, but whose father was a Greek. 2The brothers at Lystra and Iconium spoke well of him. 3Paul wanted to take him along on the journey, so he circumcised him because of the Jews who lived in that area, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.
Just like the boy in Leviticus, whose father was Egyptian, the people knew that Timothy wasn't Jewish...his father was a Greek. Paul had him circumcised because of the Jews. They knew he was Greek...but the circumcision showed that he was in solidarity with them, was genuine in his desire to minister to them.

That one's Jewishness comes from the mother is something that was borne out of the middle ages, unfortunately, with many Jewish women being raped by Crusaders. But Scripturally one is Jewish whose father is a Jew.

Quote:
Originally Posted by semperfidelis
The whole deal here is this. Has the Jew accepted Christ as the Messiah.

If he has then he is in the body of Christ and part of the Church. Paul makes it clear that after someone believes in Christ there is no more Jew or Gentile, only body of Christ.

If not he is still Jewish but not a believer in Christ.
The Gentile & Jew have the same access to the Father...the middle wall of partition is gone. Yet Gentile & Jew we still are. I see the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as pertaining specifically to the people of Israel as being fulfilled to their seed. Yes, there are certain aspects of blessings which we receive (namely salvation), but the Land is for Abraham's seed. I don't see any part of Israel as an inheritance of mine. I will gladly visit there for the Festivals, but don't see myself as living there during the Messianic Age.

So Jew and Gentile we still are...just as women and men are still women and men...we are one in the Body of Messiah. But a foot is not a hand...and an arm is not an eye...and Yeshua is the head. It's simply that we all have the same access to the Father through the Son.

Godspeed & Shalom,
Matthew

Restorer February 8th, 2006 10:54 PM
Another question for Messianic Jews regarding the person of Jesus.

I think Jewish (including Messianic?) tradition has it that the promised Messiah was one sent by God to lead them to truth, justice and righteousness, but he was not going to be God himself. (So that, everything put together, only one description fits him - The Messiah).

And this sometimes causes Jews to stumble because of the God aspect of Yeshua.

What is the Messianic Jewish complete view of Yeshua HaMashiach if different at all from the common christian view?

antsinmypants February 9th, 2006 11:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Restorer
What is the Messianic Jewish complete view of Yeshua HaMashiach if different at all from the common christian view?
For most of us, it's the same view you hold.

He's the lamb slain before the foundation of the world, and ONE (Echad) with G-d (YHVH).

He is what is referred to in Rabbinic writings as the "lesser YHVH" or the "Metatron"... he is both Messiah ben Yosef and Messiah Ben David....

Some people struggle with this view, but I would say if they stick with scripture and get far from the Anti-missionaries, their view would be much clearer.

blitzkreig February 9th, 2006 12:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Restorer
What is the Messianic Jewish complete view of Yeshua HaMashiach if different at all from the common christian view?
It seems to this ordinary white guy ... that you must learn to talk funny using as much yiddish as possible and drop all vowels if you are tying the name of G-d in English.

Aside from that Paul made it pretty clear that there was no difference.

Quote:
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

pilgrimian February 9th, 2006 01:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Restorer
Another question for Messianic Jews regarding the person of Jesus.

I think Jewish (including Messianic?) has it that the promised Messiah was one sent by God to lead them to truth, justice and righteousness, but he was not going to be God himself. (So that, everything put together, only one description fits him - The Messiah).

And this sometimes causes Jews to stumble because of God aspect of Yeshua.

What is the Messianic Jewish complete view of Yeshua HaMashiach if different at all from the common christian view?
If they have issues with His deity...then I would say that they're not Messianic. The Scriptures tell us the Messiah would be God...and Yeshua is God. I am afraid that some groups are so centered on evangelizing the Jew that they compromise the truth of the Scriptures.

We recently had a visiting speaker who caused quite a stir in our congregation--not a good stir. There is something called "Unconscious Recognition." Some Messianic groups are so centered on the Mosaic Code that they first become self-righteous...then they start thinking that since many orthodox Jews observe these commmandments that they, too, must be saved. They believe that these Jews, although they haven't recognized Yeshua as Messiah, are at least most of the way there. It's pretty sad if you ask me. Jewishness gets bigger...Yeshua gets smaller.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart Dauerman of Hashivenu
When we say that Messianic Judaism is "a Judaism," we are also acknowledging the existence of other "Judaisms." We do not deny their existence, their legitimacy, or their value. We are not the sole valid expression of Judaism with all else a counterfeit. We recognize our kinship with other Judaisms and believe that we have much of profound importance to learn from them, as well as something vitally important to share with them.
Hashivenu

...read this referred to here:

The Challenge of Our Messianic Movement

Yeshua should never be the back seat to anything. He is to be our first love. I love the congregation I attend...I even love singing the Sh'ma, and celebrating the festivals. But it is all centered around Yeshua. Never compromise. Never.

blitzkreig February 9th, 2006 02:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pilgrimian
We recently had a visiting speaker who caused quite a stir in our congregation--not a good stir. There is something called "Unconscious Recognition." Some Messianic groups are so centered on the Mosaic Code that they first become self-righteous...then they start thinking that since many orthodox Jews observe these commmandments that they, too, must be saved. They believe that these Jews, although they haven't recognized Yeshua as Messiah, are at least most of the way there. It's pretty sad if you ask me. Jewishness gets bigger...Yeshua gets smaller.
Bigger? Smaller?

There are folks potentially going to hell over issues like this.

That has always been the risk of "let's play Jew".

mabzar February 9th, 2006 03:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pilgrimian
If they have issues with His deity...then I would say that they're not Messianic. The Scriptures tell us the Messiah would be God...and Yeshua is God. I am afraid that some groups are so centered on evangelizing the Jew that they compromise the truth of the Scriptures.
Let's back up just a minute...

and re-think an aspect we may have overlooked....

ALL JEWISH Sects believe IN THE MESSIAH.

In Judaism, the Messiah (מָשִׁיחַ "anointed one", Standard Hebrew Mašíaḥ, Tiberian Hebrew Māšîªḥ Arabic المسيح;) initially meant any person who was anointed by a prophet of God. In English today, it is used in two major contexts: the anticipated saviour of the Jews, and one who is anticipated as, regarded as, or professes to be a saviour or liberator.[1] Jews, however, don't generally use the word "saviour" in reference to the messiah, primarily because of the Christian connotation of the word "saviour."

Mashiach/Messiah
The Hebrew word Mashiach (or Moshiach) means anointed one, and refers to a mortal human being. Within Judaism, the Mashiach is a human being who will be a descendant of King David continuing the Davidic line, and who will usher in a messianic era of peace and prosperity for the Children of Israel and all the nations of the world:

All of the people of Israel will come back to Torah
The people of Israel will be gathered back to the Land of Israel
The Holy Temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt
Israel will live free among the nations, and will have no need to defend itself
War and famine will end, and an era of peace and prosperity will come upon the Earth

The traditional Jewish understanding of the messiah is non-supernatural, and is best
elucidated by Maimonides (Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon), He writes: The Messianic age is when the Jews will regain their independence and all return to the land of Israel. The Messiah will be a very great king, he will achieve great fame, and his reputation among the gentile nations will be even greater than that of King Solomon. His great righteousness and the wonders that he will bring about will cause all peoples to make peace with him and all lands to serve him.... Nothing will change in the Messianic age, however, except that Jews will regain their independence. Rich and poor, strong and weak, will still exist. However it will be very easy for people to make a living, and with very little effort they will be able to accomplish very much.... it will be a time when the number of wise men will increase...war shall not exist, and nation shall no longer lift up sword against nation.... The Messianic age will be highlighted by a community of the righteous and dominated by goodness and wisdom. It will be ruled by the Messiah, a righteous and honest king, outstanding in wisdom, and close to God. Do not think that the ways of the world or the laws of nature will change, this is not true. The world will continue as it is. The prophet Isaiah predicted "The wolf shall live with the sheep, the leopard shall lie down with the kid." This, however, is merely allegory, meaning that the Jews will live safely, even with the formerly wicked nations. All nations will return to the true religion [monotheism, although not necessarily Judaism] and will no longer steal or oppress. Note that all prophecies regarding the Messiah are allegorical - Only in the Messianic age will we know the meaning of each allegory and what it comes to teach us. Our sages and prophets did not long for the Messianic age in order that they might rule the world and dominate the gentiles....the only thing they wanted was to be free for Jews to involve themselves with the Torah and its wisdom.
This above is accepted by Orthodox Judaism.

Traditional views
Although Judaism concentrates on the importance of the Earthly world, absolute majority of the authors belonging to classical Judaism posit an afterlife. According to them, Jewish tradition affirms that the human soul is immortal and thus survives the physical death of the body. The Hereafter is sometimes described with terms such as Olam Haba (the "world to come"), Gan Eden (the Heavenly "Garden of Eden", or Paradise) and Gehinom ("Purgatory").

Conservative Judaism's ideas:
Conservative Judaism varies in its teachings so that some affirm a personal messiah,
while others affirm a messianic era:

We do not know when the Messiah will come, nor whether he will be a charismatic human figure or is a symbol of the redemption of humankind from the evils of the world. Through the doctrine of a Messianic figure, Judaism teaches us that every individual human being must live as if he or she, individually, has the responsibility to bring about the messianic age. Beyond that, we echo the words of Maimonides based on the prophet Habakkuk (2:3) that though he may tarry, yet do we wait for him each day... (Emet ve-Emunah: Statement of Principles of Conservative Judaism)


From the very first part of this explaination we see in red ONE OF THE MAJOR
PROBLEMS.....it is BECAUSE of "Christianity" that there is such a break and a
division!

So....what was the Word to the 1st Century believers in Yeshua?
Rom 10:1-4 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that
they might be saved.
For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own
righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto The Righteousness of God.
For YESHUA Is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Rom 9:31-33 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained
to the law of righteousness. Wherefore?
Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they
stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingStone
and Rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on HIM shall not be ashamed.

Rom 10:17-19 So then faith cometh by hearing,
and hearing by The Word of God.
But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth,
and their words unto the ends of the world.
But I say, Did not Israel know?
First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a
foolish nation I will anger you.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election
hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded...
11-12 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall?

God forbid: but rather through their fall
Salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of
the Gentiles;
how much more their fulness? {how much more blessed will their fulness be?}

All thru the New Covenant we are posed these Questions so that we might
keep digging and asking our Creator for enough love to honor HIM for All
People!
to the Jew First, and also to the Gentile! we've got to keep GOD'S PRIORITIES
ahead of our own.

Restorer February 9th, 2006 07:27 PM
Mabzar,

That was a good and educative post.

Mabzar, you are a Messiahnic Jew?

Something else. Orthodox Judaism's persisting (and blinding) view of Yeshua is really the millenial King Jesus rather than the lamb whose kingship was lost to the Jews.

And we just but wonder what blessedness is this that will come from the Jews finally believing? But really, it appears that if Jews were to start believing in big numbers, then it will hasten the immediate completion of the current dispensation and the fulfilment of all prophecy;

I await most the millenial kingdom.

Pray for the salvation of Israel.

My Abba's Child February 10th, 2006 04:29 AM
People forget... the term Christian was slapped on us with a sneer by an unbelieving Roman Senator when Paul was testifying before him. That's the first time the word Christian is used in the Bible. Before that, a believer in Jesus as Messiah, Savior, and Son of God was known as a follower of The Way.

Gentiles who believed were converted, for they were pagan. However, a practicing Jew who came to believe Jesus was the Messiah they'd been waiting, hoping and praying for had no need of converting. Their faith was merely complete, the prophecy had been fulfilled for them. They never stopped believing in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, they just changed to accept the New Covenant. Jesus had fulfilled the Law for them and, as their father Abraham, they came to God by grace through faith.

Most weren't able to accept this... they were too wrapped up in trying to make God accept them by their merits instead of coming to Him in humble brokenness to accept His free gift. Therefore, God sent them a spirit of sleep, He closed their eyes and shut their ears so that we, Gentiles, could have our chance for God to heal our relationship with Him. In sorrow, God broke off the natural brachnes, but with joy He grafted in wild branches into the Root. But, we are not to boast against the natural branches... they'll be grafted back in during the Tribulation! God's promises are NEVER forgotten, taken back, or unfulfilled!

That's the way I see it, anyway... please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. :D:

In His love,

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