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| Messianic Jew or Christian?; OP by Syfen | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: April 30, 2012, 5:23 pm (887 Views) | |
| Servant | April 30, 2012, 5:23 pm Post #1 |
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| Servant | April 30, 2012, 5:24 pm Post #2 |
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I am Jewish and also a believer in Yeshua....It was always the teaching that the Jewishness came from the Mother...In fact I believe in Jewish law if your mother and grandmother is Jewish, you are consider to be Jewish as well. semperfidelis February 4th, 2006 09:09 AM Quote: Originally Posted by Syfen I think this might belond in "End Times Chat" since it is related to the end times, however if it should be moved, feel free to do so: Okay... this might sound like an stupid question to some that are more familiar with the subject, i was however curious as to the difference between modern Messianic Judaism, and Christianity (or more specificaly Evangelical Christianity). The average Jew would probably consider Messianic Judaism to be Christianity with a little Judaism sprinkled ontop, and on the other hand i assume that Christians would consider Messianic Jews to be Jews which have accepted Jesus (am i right on this?) , now to me a Jew which has accepted Jesus is a Christian... so what are the differences? Here are some more specific questions. Would messianic Jews celebrate Pesach (Passover), Hanukkah, Purim, Rosh HaShanah, Yom Kippur, Simchat Torah etc? Would they also celebrate Christian holidays? (Christmas, Easter etc) I know that Messianic Jews share with most Evangelical and Pentecostal Christians a belief that Jesus will someday return to the earth and establish his kingdom .. i have read that some also believe that this return is directly related to the acceptance of Jesus by other Jews (when i say Jews im talking about "old-school" Torah/Old Testament Jews...) is that the case? Are the differences mostly ceremonial? (displaying the Star of David and Menorah instead of the Cross, celebrating Jewish high holy days, performing a Brith, Bar-Mitzvah etc) What is the difference between a Messianic Jew and a Hebrew Christian? if any Sometiems i get the feeling that Messianic Jews refrain from using blatently Christian terms so that they dont "turn off" other Jews and keep them a bit more open minded, in the mid 19th centutry for example , the first Messianic umbrella organization, the Hebrew Christian Alliance, had been formed through the Church of England with the primary goal of evangelizing the Jewish people, to me that makes the difference more symantic as opposed to a complete and seperate identity. Jews for Jesus for example was officially founded by the Baptist minister Martin Rosen - basicaly the same case there. I know its alot of questions, but i cant seem to find any real clear cut answers to these maybe someone out there can help me out ... What is the deal here exacly? The whole deal here is this. Has the Jew accepted Christ as the Messiah. If he has then he is in the body of Christ and part of the Church. Paul makes it clear that after someone believes in Christ there is no more Jew or Gentile, only body of Christ. If not he is still Jewish but not a believer in Christ. antsinmypants February 5th, 2006 07:04 AM First off, I think you've gotten some pretty good answers thus far. Depending on the person, or group "participating" would depend on the level of Judaism one would see in the "messianic judaism" practiced. Some groups would call themselves "Hebrew christians" - they keep sunday and do all the other "Evangelical Christian" stuff... Others, usually deeming themselves "Messianic Judaism" ar esomewhere between that and what one sees as "Orthodox Judaism" -- the only difference in their beliefs and Conservative or Orthodoxy being that they believe in Y'shua as their messiah and keep the feasts and kashrut as well as Taharat Mishpocha out of their love for YHVH and obedience to Y'shua -- not dependant on works-based salvation. With my experience, some congregations are at their services nothing BUT a "church" in that it's all the liturgy and everything handed down since what Y'shua started became the Roman Catholic Church and filtered down in through the Reformation... it has a slight "Jewish flavor" but everything- all the "trappings" are churchy... Other congregations, walking in- the only difference you would notice from the congregation and an orthodox synogogue would be the piano and overhead computer system.. all the liturgy, prayers, and even seperation of members would be the same... and the other thing you'd notice [big time] is how "hard core" the people are for Y'shua. :): pilgrimian February 8th, 2006 08:52 AM Quote: Originally Posted by pilgrimian I cannot be Jewish...because my father is not Jewish. And Jewishness comes from the father...and since my dad's not Jewish I am not Jewish. Godspeed & Shalom, Matthew Quote: Originally Posted by mdcar1 I am Jewish and also a believer in Yeshua....It was always the teaching that the Jewishness came from the Mother...In fact I believe in Jewish law if your mother and grandmother is Jewish, you are consider to be Jewish as well. It is true that contemporary Judaism teaches that Jewishness comes from the mother, but this is not the case of Scripturally grounded Judaism--and that of Yeshua's day. Quote: Leviticus 24: 10 And the son of an Israelitish woman, whose father was an Egyptian, went out among the children of Israel; and the son of the Israelitish woman and a man of Israel strove together in the camp: 11 and the son of the Israelitish woman blasphemed the Name, and cursed; and they brought him unto Moses. And his mother's name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri, of the tribe of Dan. As we see here, the child is Egyptian...never considered an Israelite. He is the son of an Israelitish woman...but not an Israelite himself. The same is true of Timothy in the New Testament Scriptures: Quote: Acts 16: 1He came to Derbe and then to Lystra, where a disciple named Timothy lived, whose mother was a Jewess and a believer, but whose father was a Greek. 2The brothers at Lystra and Iconium spoke well of him. 3Paul wanted to take him along on the journey, so he circumcised him because of the Jews who lived in that area, for they all knew that his father was a Greek. Just like the boy in Leviticus, whose father was Egyptian, the people knew that Timothy wasn't Jewish...his father was a Greek. Paul had him circumcised because of the Jews. They knew he was Greek...but the circumcision showed that he was in solidarity with them, was genuine in his desire to minister to them. That one's Jewishness comes from the mother is something that was borne out of the middle ages, unfortunately, with many Jewish women being raped by Crusaders. But Scripturally one is Jewish whose father is a Jew. Quote: Originally Posted by semperfidelis The whole deal here is this. Has the Jew accepted Christ as the Messiah. If he has then he is in the body of Christ and part of the Church. Paul makes it clear that after someone believes in Christ there is no more Jew or Gentile, only body of Christ. If not he is still Jewish but not a believer in Christ. The Gentile & Jew have the same access to the Father...the middle wall of partition is gone. Yet Gentile & Jew we still are. I see the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as pertaining specifically to the people of Israel as being fulfilled to their seed. Yes, there are certain aspects of blessings which we receive (namely salvation), but the Land is for Abraham's seed. I don't see any part of Israel as an inheritance of mine. I will gladly visit there for the Festivals, but don't see myself as living there during the Messianic Age. So Jew and Gentile we still are...just as women and men are still women and men...we are one in the Body of Messiah. But a foot is not a hand...and an arm is not an eye...and Yeshua is the head. It's simply that we all have the same access to the Father through the Son. Godspeed & Shalom, Matthew Restorer February 8th, 2006 10:54 PM Another question for Messianic Jews regarding the person of Jesus. I think Jewish (including Messianic?) tradition has it that the promised Messiah was one sent by God to lead them to truth, justice and righteousness, but he was not going to be God himself. (So that, everything put together, only one description fits him - The Messiah). And this sometimes causes Jews to stumble because of the God aspect of Yeshua. What is the Messianic Jewish complete view of Yeshua HaMashiach if different at all from the common christian view? antsinmypants February 9th, 2006 11:36 AM Quote: Originally Posted by Restorer What is the Messianic Jewish complete view of Yeshua HaMashiach if different at all from the common christian view? For most of us, it's the same view you hold. He's the lamb slain before the foundation of the world, and ONE (Echad) with G-d (YHVH). He is what is referred to in Rabbinic writings as the "lesser YHVH" or the "Metatron"... he is both Messiah ben Yosef and Messiah Ben David.... Some people struggle with this view, but I would say if they stick with scripture and get far from the Anti-missionaries, their view would be much clearer. blitzkreig February 9th, 2006 12:03 PM Quote: Originally Posted by Restorer What is the Messianic Jewish complete view of Yeshua HaMashiach if different at all from the common christian view? It seems to this ordinary white guy ... that you must learn to talk funny using as much yiddish as possible and drop all vowels if you are tying the name of G-d in English. Aside from that Paul made it pretty clear that there was no difference. Quote: Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. pilgrimian February 9th, 2006 01:16 PM Quote: Originally Posted by Restorer Another question for Messianic Jews regarding the person of Jesus. I think Jewish (including Messianic?) has it that the promised Messiah was one sent by God to lead them to truth, justice and righteousness, but he was not going to be God himself. (So that, everything put together, only one description fits him - The Messiah). And this sometimes causes Jews to stumble because of God aspect of Yeshua. What is the Messianic Jewish complete view of Yeshua HaMashiach if different at all from the common christian view? If they have issues with His deity...then I would say that they're not Messianic. The Scriptures tell us the Messiah would be God...and Yeshua is God. I am afraid that some groups are so centered on evangelizing the Jew that they compromise the truth of the Scriptures. We recently had a visiting speaker who caused quite a stir in our congregation--not a good stir. There is something called "Unconscious Recognition." Some Messianic groups are so centered on the Mosaic Code that they first become self-righteous...then they start thinking that since many orthodox Jews observe these commmandments that they, too, must be saved. They believe that these Jews, although they haven't recognized Yeshua as Messiah, are at least most of the way there. It's pretty sad if you ask me. Jewishness gets bigger...Yeshua gets smaller. Quote: Originally Posted by Stuart Dauerman of Hashivenu When we say that Messianic Judaism is "a Judaism," we are also acknowledging the existence of other "Judaisms." We do not deny their existence, their legitimacy, or their value. We are not the sole valid expression of Judaism with all else a counterfeit. We recognize our kinship with other Judaisms and believe that we have much of profound importance to learn from them, as well as something vitally important to share with them. Hashivenu ...read this referred to here: The Challenge of Our Messianic Movement Yeshua should never be the back seat to anything. He is to be our first love. I love the congregation I attend...I even love singing the Sh'ma, and celebrating the festivals. But it is all centered around Yeshua. Never compromise. Never. blitzkreig February 9th, 2006 02:16 PM Quote: Originally Posted by pilgrimian We recently had a visiting speaker who caused quite a stir in our congregation--not a good stir. There is something called "Unconscious Recognition." Some Messianic groups are so centered on the Mosaic Code that they first become self-righteous...then they start thinking that since many orthodox Jews observe these commmandments that they, too, must be saved. They believe that these Jews, although they haven't recognized Yeshua as Messiah, are at least most of the way there. It's pretty sad if you ask me. Jewishness gets bigger...Yeshua gets smaller. Bigger? Smaller? There are folks potentially going to hell over issues like this. That has always been the risk of "let's play Jew". mabzar February 9th, 2006 03:01 PM Quote: Originally Posted by pilgrimian If they have issues with His deity...then I would say that they're not Messianic. The Scriptures tell us the Messiah would be God...and Yeshua is God. I am afraid that some groups are so centered on evangelizing the Jew that they compromise the truth of the Scriptures. Let's back up just a minute... and re-think an aspect we may have overlooked.... ALL JEWISH Sects believe IN THE MESSIAH. In Judaism, the Messiah (מָשִׁיחַ "anointed one", Standard Hebrew Mašíaḥ, Tiberian Hebrew Māšîªḥ Arabic المسيح;) initially meant any person who was anointed by a prophet of God. In English today, it is used in two major contexts: the anticipated saviour of the Jews, and one who is anticipated as, regarded as, or professes to be a saviour or liberator.[1] Jews, however, don't generally use the word "saviour" in reference to the messiah, primarily because of the Christian connotation of the word "saviour." Mashiach/Messiah The Hebrew word Mashiach (or Moshiach) means anointed one, and refers to a mortal human being. Within Judaism, the Mashiach is a human being who will be a descendant of King David continuing the Davidic line, and who will usher in a messianic era of peace and prosperity for the Children of Israel and all the nations of the world: All of the people of Israel will come back to Torah The people of Israel will be gathered back to the Land of Israel The Holy Temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt Israel will live free among the nations, and will have no need to defend itself War and famine will end, and an era of peace and prosperity will come upon the Earth The traditional Jewish understanding of the messiah is non-supernatural, and is best elucidated by Maimonides (Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon), He writes: The Messianic age is when the Jews will regain their independence and all return to the land of Israel. The Messiah will be a very great king, he will achieve great fame, and his reputation among the gentile nations will be even greater than that of King Solomon. His great righteousness and the wonders that he will bring about will cause all peoples to make peace with him and all lands to serve him.... Nothing will change in the Messianic age, however, except that Jews will regain their independence. Rich and poor, strong and weak, will still exist. However it will be very easy for people to make a living, and with very little effort they will be able to accomplish very much.... it will be a time when the number of wise men will increase...war shall not exist, and nation shall no longer lift up sword against nation.... The Messianic age will be highlighted by a community of the righteous and dominated by goodness and wisdom. It will be ruled by the Messiah, a righteous and honest king, outstanding in wisdom, and close to God. Do not think that the ways of the world or the laws of nature will change, this is not true. The world will continue as it is. The prophet Isaiah predicted "The wolf shall live with the sheep, the leopard shall lie down with the kid." This, however, is merely allegory, meaning that the Jews will live safely, even with the formerly wicked nations. All nations will return to the true religion [monotheism, although not necessarily Judaism] and will no longer steal or oppress. Note that all prophecies regarding the Messiah are allegorical - Only in the Messianic age will we know the meaning of each allegory and what it comes to teach us. Our sages and prophets did not long for the Messianic age in order that they might rule the world and dominate the gentiles....the only thing they wanted was to be free for Jews to involve themselves with the Torah and its wisdom. This above is accepted by Orthodox Judaism. Traditional views Although Judaism concentrates on the importance of the Earthly world, absolute majority of the authors belonging to classical Judaism posit an afterlife. According to them, Jewish tradition affirms that the human soul is immortal and thus survives the physical death of the body. The Hereafter is sometimes described with terms such as Olam Haba (the "world to come"), Gan Eden (the Heavenly "Garden of Eden", or Paradise) and Gehinom ("Purgatory"). Conservative Judaism's ideas: Conservative Judaism varies in its teachings so that some affirm a personal messiah, while others affirm a messianic era: We do not know when the Messiah will come, nor whether he will be a charismatic human figure or is a symbol of the redemption of humankind from the evils of the world. Through the doctrine of a Messianic figure, Judaism teaches us that every individual human being must live as if he or she, individually, has the responsibility to bring about the messianic age. Beyond that, we echo the words of Maimonides based on the prophet Habakkuk (2:3) that though he may tarry, yet do we wait for him each day... (Emet ve-Emunah: Statement of Principles of Conservative Judaism) From the very first part of this explaination we see in red ONE OF THE MAJOR PROBLEMS.....it is BECAUSE of "Christianity" that there is such a break and a division! So....what was the Word to the 1st Century believers in Yeshua? Rom 10:1-4 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto The Righteousness of God. For YESHUA Is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Rom 9:31-33 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingStone and Rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on HIM shall not be ashamed. Rom 10:17-19 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by The Word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded... 11-12 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall Salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? {how much more blessed will their fulness be?} All thru the New Covenant we are posed these Questions so that we might keep digging and asking our Creator for enough love to honor HIM for All People! to the Jew First, and also to the Gentile! we've got to keep GOD'S PRIORITIES ahead of our own. Restorer February 9th, 2006 07:27 PM Mabzar, That was a good and educative post. Mabzar, you are a Messiahnic Jew? Something else. Orthodox Judaism's persisting (and blinding) view of Yeshua is really the millenial King Jesus rather than the lamb whose kingship was lost to the Jews. And we just but wonder what blessedness is this that will come from the Jews finally believing? But really, it appears that if Jews were to start believing in big numbers, then it will hasten the immediate completion of the current dispensation and the fulfilment of all prophecy; I await most the millenial kingdom. Pray for the salvation of Israel. My Abba's Child February 10th, 2006 04:29 AM People forget... the term Christian was slapped on us with a sneer by an unbelieving Roman Senator when Paul was testifying before him. That's the first time the word Christian is used in the Bible. Before that, a believer in Jesus as Messiah, Savior, and Son of God was known as a follower of The Way. Gentiles who believed were converted, for they were pagan. However, a practicing Jew who came to believe Jesus was the Messiah they'd been waiting, hoping and praying for had no need of converting. Their faith was merely complete, the prophecy had been fulfilled for them. They never stopped believing in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, they just changed to accept the New Covenant. Jesus had fulfilled the Law for them and, as their father Abraham, they came to God by grace through faith. Most weren't able to accept this... they were too wrapped up in trying to make God accept them by their merits instead of coming to Him in humble brokenness to accept His free gift. Therefore, God sent them a spirit of sleep, He closed their eyes and shut their ears so that we, Gentiles, could have our chance for God to heal our relationship with Him. In sorrow, God broke off the natural brachnes, but with joy He grafted in wild branches into the Root. But, we are not to boast against the natural branches... they'll be grafted back in during the Tribulation! God's promises are NEVER forgotten, taken back, or unfulfilled! That's the way I see it, anyway... please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. :D: In His love, [/quote] |
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